2 years since the historic Dobbs Decision that overturned Roe v. Wade, Cole Muzio interviews State Senator Ed Setzler about the impact of this ruling and the passage of the Heartbeat Bill in Georgia. They discuss the background and motivation behind the bill, the challenges faced during the legislative process, and the importance of building relationships and doing thorough research. They also highlight the courage and dedication of the legislators who voted for the bill, especially those in swing districts. Overall, the conversation emphasizes the significance of standing up for the right things, being strategic and wise, and maintaining the right spirit in the political arena. They focus on the importance of clear communication and messaging in the pro-life movement and discuss the need for moral clarity and consistency in advocating for the sanctity of human life. They also highlight the victories and challenges faced in the fight against abortion, emphasizing the importance of engaging the culture and working towards a society that values and protects unborn children. The conversation ends with a call to action for individuals to get involved and make a difference in the pro-life movement.
Takeaways
Segments
00:00
Introduction and Setting the Stage
04:24
Senator Setzler's Background and Call to Public Service
07:16
The Impact of Family Perspective on Legislative Priorities
10:28
The Journey of the Heartbeat Bill: From Campaign Pledge to Law
16:23
The Role of Relationships and Research in Legislative Success
27:48
Strategies for Effective Political Leadership
30:48
Recognizing the Sanctity of Human Life
33:22
Engaging the Culture
44:31
Taking Action
2 years since the historic Dobbs Decision that overturned Roe v. Wade, Cole Muzio interviews State Senator Ed Setzler about the impact of this ruling and the passage of the Heartbeat Bill in Georgia. They discuss the background and motivation behind the bill, the challenges faced during the legislative process, and the importance of building relationships and doing thorough research. They also highlight the courage and dedication of the legislators who voted for the bill, especially those in swing districts. Overall, the conversation emphasizes the significance of standing up for the right things, being strategic and wise, and maintaining the right spirit in the political arena. They focus on the importance of clear communication and messaging in the pro-life movement and discuss the need for moral clarity and consistency in advocating for the sanctity of human life. They also highlight the victories and challenges faced in the fight against abortion, emphasizing the importance of engaging the culture and working towards a society that values and protects unborn children. The conversation ends with a call to action for individuals to get involved and make a difference in the pro-life movement.
Takeaways
Segments
00:00
Introduction and Setting the Stage
04:24
Senator Setzler's Background and Call to Public Service
07:16
The Impact of Family Perspective on Legislative Priorities
10:28
The Journey of the Heartbeat Bill: From Campaign Pledge to Law
16:23
The Role of Relationships and Research in Legislative Success
27:48
Strategies for Effective Political Leadership
30:48
Recognizing the Sanctity of Human Life
33:22
Engaging the Culture
44:31
Taking Action
Cole Muzio (01:16.97)
Hey everybody, this is Cole Muzio, president of Frontline and we are excited to launch our podcast, the From the Frontline podcast. And I am, these are going to be good conversations. We're going to talk about issues that are relevant. We're going to talk about worldview. We're going to talk about how Christians should engage in the public sphere. We'll talk about current events and a whole lot of different things. But I thought it was really fitting for our first one of these. We're launching this on the second anniversary of the Dobbs decision, incredibly historic.
as we celebrate lives being saved. And so I couldn't come up with a more fitting guest for our first episode on the second anniversary of Dobs, then State Senator Ed Setzler, great friend of ours, a great friend of me personally, great friend of our organization, and a great friend for the cause of life, and a whole lot more. But Senator Setzler, it is great to see you, brother. How you doing?
Ed Setzler (02:11.788)
Cole doing great, man. This is fun to be part of the podcast. I would tell the folks watching this, do not be deceived by how smooth this is going. Cole does not have the podcast stick down yet, but this has been engineered by his great team at Frontline. Appreciate the opportunity to talk to you guys today.
Cole Muzio (02:22.122)
You
Cole Muzio (02:29.962)
Yeah, we're going to figure this out as we go, but it's going to be fun, man. So, you know, I think a lot about all that God has done. I think I think we, you know, we see a couple losses in statewide referendum and you see kind of the tone and tenor of the life movement. And some people try to, you know, they tend to get a little down. And, you know, on this second anniversary, one of the things that I think is just so important.
for Christians across the board is to think about what God has done as we celebrate the victory for human life. The Dobbs decision is something that many people who've been engaged in the pro -life movement thought they would never ever see. And here in Georgia, not only did we celebrate that victory, but with it came the enactment of our heartbeat law.
which is saving tens of thousands of lives every year across our state. And for those that were not there in 2019, and even in the lead up, I mean, you and I were.
on board with Brian Kemp, the candidate who pledged to sign a heartbeat law. And we had those conversations and seeing God do an amazing work through his candidacy, through his election, which was a razor thin victory. And then coming into January of 2019, where all the media, all the pundits thought, hey, that was just a promise that he made on the campaign trail that he didn't really mean. And then you roll into that legislative session. There was a ton of work that
that went into this heartbeat law coming into fruition. So for those that didn't see it, there's less of a tendency to celebrate what all this day means. But I would love for you to take us back and talk about not only what got, you know, my first question to you actually to go back even further, tell me a little bit and our audience a little bit about who you are, what your background is, and what calls you into public service in the first place before we start talking specifically about heartbeat.
Ed Setzler (04:24.236)
Well, Cole, it's funny, folks asked me when I first ran for office for the State House a number of years ago, they said, you know, what credentials do you have in politics? What have you done? I said, well, essentially I spend all of my spare time running around the sprinkler with my kids. I mean, I was a dad living in a, you know, three bedroom, two bath house, early thirties, getting into my mid thirties, raising small kids and just...
trying to be faithful and you look around and you see that regular folks ought to matter. It ought to be regular folks that step up and get engaged in politics, not just the elites that have been running the state for 300 years, but just regular folks who'd raise their hand and put their name on the ballot. And the cool thing I was going to at the time, a little small tiny church, I didn't have big connection to this area, but our little...
gathering of friends, you know, 40 people in the cafeteria of an elementary school. That was our church family, you know, knocked on doors the whole summer. And the craziest thing happened, I got elected to the Let's Lecture. One of the things that prompted me to run was folks within the pro -life movement saying, you know, Rick, we need to have people who would step out there that are not, you know, not the typical political class, but regular folks that...
care deeply and have maybe some of the skill sets to do it. That was 15 years before we passed the heartbeat bill. But again, just where there's things, stepping into it is, you know, those of you who don't know, we have a part -time legislature here in Georgia. I work a full -time job in the architecture industry. In fact, I'm in my office right now, my business office. We work 45 -hour weeks, day in, day out, month in, month out when we get into legislative session.
You just kind of weave a full -time job into full -time at the Capitol. And I think it's some of the sensibilities, the common sense of folks who work every day for a living that can make these things happen with God's grace. And that's what I think Frontline's been so important in this because we're working, serving clients every day in our day jobs. Frontline, day in, day out, week in, week out, 50, 60 hour weeks. They're doing the work year round to lay the groundwork for us to be successful during our legislative sessions.
Cole Muzio (06:46.73)
Yeah, one of the things you mentioned, we're coming up into an election cycle where your two candidates for president are 78 years old and 81 years old. You mentioned being called into office in your mid 30s with young kids. And look, God can call people into office at different stages of life, and this is not to say one's better than the other. But I think it's so important. And how much did that kind of family perspective play a role in what kind of legislator that you're gonna be? I mean, as a guy that has kids at home,
working a day job, figuring out life. You've got different priorities than someone who may be retired and doing this kind of as a later in life sort of gig. How did that affect your worldview and outlook as a legislator?
Ed Setzler (07:25.004)
you
Ed Setzler (07:28.716)
Well, it's funny, I was, as I said, in a small, growing church, and one of the things that our pastor had made clear to us as we were kind of particularizing ourselves as a church and not being a mission but our own church was that we didn't want to have a leadership team made up just of bank presidents and people that are connected with deep pockets. We wanted people that were really biblically grounded to lead and set the direction for the church. I think the same thing can be true about leadership in the civil sphere. We know from
Genesis chapter two, you know, before the fall, God establishes the basis of civil government, put Adam and the Garden to cultivate it and keep it. So I think that same mandate that we have to step forward in our churches and our families applies at the civil level. I think very often, I tell people a lot, you know, this is not a new problem. I mean, the prophet Samuel had a candidate recruitment problem. He tried Saul, that didn't work. He went to Jesse in the first seven.
of his son standing in line, you know, waiting for the prophet to show up and pick them weren't the right ones. But it's people who were, it was, you know, Jesse, Samuel looks at Jesse and says, are you sure this is all, these are all the candidates? And he's, well, actually there's another. And they called in David and that was the one. And I think a lot of times folks that are the right ones for office are the Davids who are busy doing the work day in, day out that they're called to do. And more, more led by.
call than perhaps personal promotion. And I think that's a, when I look across my time in the legislature, the folks who've made the biggest difference, who do the right thing time in, time out, are those who perhaps were not always pining to be state legislators, but were, just sort of found themselves in a place where they could step up and make a difference. And I think there may be some people listening right now who are those folks, those Davids. And I can tell you, certainly I had no political resume before I ran, but God's not the guy to resumes.
It was clearly his work that made this Heartbeat Bill happen. It wasn't my skill or Cole Museo's good looks. It was really came down to the issue of opening a door, opening a way where there was no way. And if you walk by faith, not by sight, timing emerges. You can step through that and accomplish these things. And I think the fruits of that are starting to be seen. And as Cole alluded to, by God's work, not ours, us just kind of being faithful to play our small roles.
Ed Setzler (09:51.66)
I think 30 ,000 lives plus or minus have been saved since the Dobson Union came down and our 11th Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed that our state law was able to go into place. So it's fun to see that. It's fun to see that some of the pro -life leaders who urge me to step forward and run many years before that, that maybe something would come of that. And...
Glory be to God that there's things can happen. It's not a political win, it's really a win for the kingdom.
Cole Muzio (10:28.106)
Yeah, I don't want to get my C .S. Lewis mixed up, but I think it was in Prince Caspian where it's, you know, Azlan is wanting to make Caspian the king and he says he's not ready or doesn't want the job. And I think the response there is that's precisely why you are supposed to be the king. And so that's that's a mentality that I think a lot of Christians need to have is that those that are pursuing office and want it and that's their their gear and their drive is that pursuit of that title.
So often those are the people that are going to come in and falter. But if you're simply the person that's there and ready to raise their hand and serve the living King, those are the type of people that we want in office. So I've seen God use you and obviously the heartbeat bill being a profound example. We could probably spend an entire podcast talking about the ways that God worked during that legislative process. The number of things that I would even classify as miracles that were overcome.
Ed Setzler (11:22.348)
Yeah.
Cole Muzio (11:23.53)
throughout all that, can you give kind of a synopsis for people that are listening, how did that bill go from campaign pledge to something that you were studying, working on, drafted, how did it ultimately drop to, there was kind of, there was a lot of dicey moments where it didn't look like it would come to fruition. How did that thing become the law of the land in the state of Georgia?
Ed Setzler (11:48.3)
You know, Winston Churchill said after some hard times in North Africa in World War II, he said, you know, our defeats are but stepping stones to victory. You know, Hitler's victories are but stepping stones to ruin. And we had lost more times than we won. I mean, you think back to coming in the let's lecture, we had some wins, you know, put a bill in place that essentially required an ultrasound before abortions performed and some things like this that were...
meaningful steps, but they were not decisive steps. We tried to take some decisive steps and lost many of those times. I think it's those defeats that really laid the groundwork for victory. You see who you can trust. You see who kind of understands some things about the process. But with that in mind, coming into the 2018 election, I think one of the real enablers was that Brian Kemp, who is a man of his word, committed not just to pass a heartbeat bill.
A couple states had started taking steps towards a bill that prohibited abortion if the child had a heartbeat. But he committed that it was really a broader issue than that. That not only we passed a bill that would ban abortion if the child had a detectable heartbeat, but that we would establish the full legal personhood of the unborn child really through all pregnancy and across all corners of Georgia code, because that's really the issue. When you look back at the...
Cole Muzio (13:14.314)
Hmm.
Ed Setzler (13:15.468)
the brutal, ugly history of Roe v. Wade. I mean, one of the things the Roe Court said, even in their opinion in 1973, was that no state's ever established a person under the unborn child. But it was very clear coming out of that opinion that if any state did establish the legal person under the child, they'd get equal rights and they'd get protections. And this whole balancing test of the mother's right to privacy and the child's whatever it is.
If it is a full human being, that's obviously going to prevail. And that's what we laid the groundwork for. And you know, Governor Kemp, it was this week, really it was this week of June in 2018 during his campaign, he said, you know, we're not just going to pass an heartbeat bill. We're going to protect life as the unborn child, as a full human life and with full personhood. And that's, that was really the difference maker.
I think that put us in a path that should the Dobbs decision not come down, that candidly paved the way for the heartbeat bill in the courts to be fairly easily adopted. We believed in a court, as we were drafting this before Amy Coney Barrett was on the court, you've got a court that's a 5 -4 court, perhaps. That's when John Roberts is with you. And you've got a...
Cole Muzio (14:42.246)
you
Ed Setzler (14:42.476)
a conservative like John Roberts, but one that gives tremendous deference to existing precedent. We didn't think we could just sloppily throw something in front of them that they would take. We recognize that the moral, ethical truth of the person who had the unborn child was foundational. But it was also legal, we also believe it was legally essential to win this issue. I mean, it is the issue. And as we said,
The heartbeat bill didn't wave its fist at Roe vs. Wade, it answered Roe vs. Wade. Roe vs. Wade said, if any state would establish the person or the unborn child, the abortion logic collapses because the child has full legal value and the legislature put their money where their mouth is. And the heartbeat bill, at the beginning, was not just a prohibition on abortion where you've got a detectable heartbeat, but the heartbeat bill provides that dads of pregnant moms provide child support beginning at conception.
that children get public benefits throughout all their period of gestation while they're inside a mom. You know, moms driving in HOV lanes can drive in HOV lanes because there's two people in the car, mom and the child. You know, and the for taxes, mom and dad have their first child and there's three family members when they file their taxes. Personhood means this and that's what we put in code with
Cole Muzio (15:41.482)
Hmm.
Ed Setzler (16:10.476)
with the House Bill 481 and again, it was supported by Governor Kemp. Couldn't have done it without him. But it really is that foundational issue, not just about abortion, but recognizing the personhood of the unborn child.
Cole Muzio (16:23.242)
So I think that's so key and I want to come back to that in just a second. One of the things that I've often referred to you as, beyond just being a politician or a conservative, is you're not a bomb thorn. This was a big conservative bill, but it didn't come because you paraded out in front of the media and took far...
hard right stances and kind of you know became real angry and called people out by name. You know you mentioned you were this was your 15th year in the legislature when you passed this. At the time you were chairman of science and technology committee in the House of Representatives. You had built good relationships with leaders.
Talk just for a second for those that are listening because you want this to be informative for folks as they're thinking about the kind of political leaders they want. Maybe God's calling some listeners to be political leaders. I think so often today, folks tend to look for...
the angry person, the person that's kind of leading with a lot of raw emotion. But achieving big victories like this comes with a perspective and a level of statesmanship and states craft that I think is really important. Can you talk about the relational capital that you had built in that building with your colleagues and how important that was throughout the process? And I'll just add on top of that for you.
You were incredibly studious throughout this process. You looked at other existing laws, you looked at case law, you looked at precedent, and you built a bill that was very thoughtful and wasn't just, it didn't just come out and say, hey, we're banning all abortion, we're banning all abortion after, you know, detectable heartbeat. You really put a lot of thought into how this bill was constructed.
Cole Muzio (18:09.002)
How did God use your 15 years of legislature relationships that you built, your studiousness to also make this possible? And this isn't to pat you on the back, this is to say that this is part of being a leader that I think is important.
Ed Setzler (18:23.788)
Yeah, I tell folks, you know, it's too much is made about the show business of politics. When you've got candidates that are phenomenal entertainers, it's fun. I mean, everyone enjoys the fun of good campaign events and some species of things. But really what it comes down to in reality is doing the hard things, the small things, the nerdy things. These are nerdy builds. You've got to get the language right.
There's not some magical attorney out there that's going to bring everything to bear and solve these problems where you have to wrestle through these policy questions and then get the language right. So, I mean, I think for me, it was an issue of spending, I had spent 15 sessions on the Judiciary Committee, even as a non -attorney, not a member of the bar, not a law school graduate, but one thing that's important for folks to recognize is...
Cole Muzio (19:16.586)
I think you can claim a law degree now though, right?
Ed Setzler (19:19.948)
No, I'd rather be a good street lawyer than a bad attorney. But I'll tell you, too much is made about, hey, I'm not an attorney. That's nonsense. Every lawmaker effectively has to step up and take ownership of the language and the details. And that's something that I embraced very early on in my time in the legislature is...
Cole Muzio (19:27.466)
Okay.
Ed Setzler (19:44.076)
the language matters, you know, take, do the professional development stuff you need to do to understand all these careful balances and what these different tests mean and how this works in the civil setting and how it works in the criminal setting and how these things all come together. So, you know, it is about doing the homework. And, you know, it just, it was, I talked about all the defeats you have. I mean, I told folks that it really was all the humbling,
failures where you try something and you lose, you're not treated right in the system, you're double -crossed, you know, the dirty deeds done dirt cheap in politics happen to you and you're the one that loses. It does prepare you for a process that in negotiations and in when to kind of when to compromise, when not and when to hold firm on things. And I think as you alluded to earlier relationally,
you know, it's, it really becomes an issue to be an effective legislator is your constituency is as a member of the state house representatives, it's 180 members in the house. There's 56 members in the Senate. you know, you represent at the time of house as a house member, 60 ,000 people now as a state senator, almost 200 ,000, but your constituency really is how are you able to operate within that, that group of people and influence them to do things.
that many know are right, but the pain of things, sometimes the fear, the difficulty of facing down the screaming, shouting, ugly political left, it's just so messy. Most folks just don't want to do it. And the left screams and shouts and causes threats because they recognize, pathetically, a lot of conservatives just won't engage. They can be spooked into doing nothing.
You don't win any points by standing on the capital steps, pointing out people on the left and getting into a contest with them. It gets back to one of the things you learn as a military, that served in the army for nine years. Economy of force, you don't spend political capital and effort on things that are not going to bring fruit. They're not going to bring about an advantage. They've tried to work very hard not to get into arguments that weren't fruitful.
Ed Setzler (22:07.308)
not create enemies that wouldn't, there's no advantage to creating enemies. And one thing that was very interesting during the debate, one of the pro -abortion lobbyists who stood up and spoke against the bill and committee started up by complimenting me personally. 10 or 12 years before this happened, I helped him keep his job. He was,
not an abortion lobbyist at the time. He was in a different role. As a human being, I leaned in and tried to help him with something and helped him. It was really a difference -making moment for him. I had no idea that 12 years later we'd be squaring off against each other in an abortion debate. Doing things that are kind and good for the right reasons, not just to folks that can help you, but to anybody, those things just pay off in God's economy and in time. It was just
It's kind of fun to watch. It was unfortunate to see him be on the opposite side of the issue, but it does create a dynamic where even when your opponents are against you on the issues, if you've been trying to live the fruits of the spirit and let those come out, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self -control, if those things are seen more in you than in the lips and saying provocative things on social media,
That's going to have an impact on how things play out over time. Even when folks are opposed to you, it's a different kind of debate if you've been doing your homework and you've been loving other folks well and being kind and hard. I mean, you have to be hard on things, but that doesn't mean she harsh. And that's just part of this process. I think that's honored over time if you can live that way.
Cole Muzio (23:48.49)
Yeah.
Cole Muzio (23:56.778)
Yeah, I think, you know, just again to testify to kind of what I was able to witness is that your colleagues had a high degree of trust in you as you carry this legislation. You had to answer questions from the media and from those that wanted to oppose you over and over again.
but your study and research played a profound role in the fact that you didn't misstep, you didn't misspeak. You didn't give them fodder to come shoot this thing down. You just did an incredible job. I also, at this point, as we're talking about this bill, we talked about Brian Kemp. I wanna give a congratulations and a thank you to all the members of the General Assembly that voted for this bill. I think of several specific examples of people that were particularly heroic.
You know, Bruce Thompson sponsored the initial version of this in the Senate. Renee Unerman carried the bill across the finish line and said it should be the fantastic job. You know, Josh Bonner. I remember sitting in committee as Josh went to go find people to get him in the committee to make sure that we pass that bill. Josh Bonner was a hero. Jody lot was amazing throughout this process as well. Houston games and several other legislators like him in very difficult swing districts. And I think people that have not been in the Capitol during intense battles don't fully realize.
the amount of hostility and hatred that comes to a targeted few. So they'll be nasty to somebody in a Republican district, but they will really focus their ire. I mean, our Planned Parenthood was distributing sheets with, here's the 30 legislators that you need to talk to, and it was based on what their districts were. And so they were sending very aggressive pro -abortion people to go yell at swing district legislators and tell them, you're gonna lose your seat over this, you're gonna lose your seat.
Houston Gaines in particular, I think of him so often because at that point he was just a recent graduate from UGA, young guy, I think he was 23 or 24 at the time. And to come in and step in the legislature after he'd lost his first election running for the seat, he ran again, he won very narrowly in Athens. They came after him, were yelled at him at the ropes, threatening him with all sorts of stuff. He stuck with it and he voted for it.
Cole Muzio (26:08.714)
And so many legislators like that, just I'm spotlighting Houston, but there's several others. 91 votes in the House, 33 votes in the State Senate, incredible victory. And so I'm so grateful for all the people that participated in this.
Ed Setzler (26:19.916)
It was 92 in the House of Cole. It was 92. It was an air vote. I will tell you though, to your point about Houston gains, Houston became one of our political heroes in that moment. As Cole said, very young guy, swing district. Houston knew the bill was right. He knew the heartbeat bill was spot on. He supported the policy, never wavered on that. He just said, you know, this is hard. Representing liberal Athens, they're going to come after me.
Cole Muzio (26:23.594)
Not now? Okay.
Ed Setzler (26:49.132)
Houston had concluded one of the brightest young leaders in our state. He concluded he was walking to his political martyrdom to support the heartbeat bill. He believed it was going to beat him, but it was the right thing to do and he did it anyway. So he chose martyrdom to do the right thing. And the irony is the folks in Athens sent him back after that. He didn't get martyred over the issue, but he believed in his heart of hearts he was going to lose over it.
and still did the right thing. And I just, I can't, can't tell you enough. I've told his constituents that I've told folks, you know, all around the state, that issue, issue. He wasn't alone. There were some others that were kind of that same, same felt like they were in the same boat. Those are the kind of folks we support strongly who are in tight districts and still do the hard things. And, and again, it's just, I can't, can't say enough. Do things, do the right things. You need elected officials who will do and fight for the hard things.
They'll be smart and wise and fight for them in the right way. And then thirdly, they fight for them with the right spirit about them. The ethos with which they do their business is really important. So look for those three things that anybody who's standing for election that you're considering supporting. Do they really truly believe the right things or are they just saying them? They believe the right things. They're strategic, thoughtful, smart. They practice and do things the right way. They know how to work within a system.
And then thirdly, do they have the spirit that's going to make it really work over time and have folk willing to lead them on key issues? That's really what we look for. I aspire to that. My wife might be my harshest critic whether I achieve that every day, but we're certainly striving for that. I think that's a different smegra, not just on this issue, but on other hard issues where it really comes down to just a couple of votes.
Cole Muzio (28:41.962)
Yeah, I mean, everyone deserves a wife who's their harshest critic. I think in my mind it's the same way. But, you know, I mean, I think even as we're talking, I think of PK Martin too, who did lose his seat. I don't know that it was singularly over this issue, but he actually went to the well to speak to this bill in a favorable context. So while we're highlighting those folks,
Ed Setzler (28:51.948)
Yeah.
Cole Muzio (29:03.978)
You were one who, as you were carrying this, was facing a real prospect of losing your seat. You were in a district that I think in 2016, you won, and in 2018, you won. But I think in 2016, did Trump lose your district in 2016?
Ed Setzler (29:21.644)
It was very close, it was razor thin. In 2020, the year after we passed the RIP bill, that next cycle, Trump was 48 .1 % of my district. So he lost my district by 600 and something votes. So we had to pick up a thousand or so votes on top of that. Democrats supporting pro -life legislators. And ironically,
That's not as crazy as it sounds to some people. Georgia has a large number of folks who tend to vote Democrat who are pro -life. They feel sort of culturally they're Democrats, but they're faithful Christians in most cases. And many in rural parts of the state, many of them from the minority communities who are strongly pro -life, but for whatever reason tend to vote Democrat.
support a pro -life Republican. And that was really the difference. I think it was, as my wife's pointed out, it was really folks of conscience from the church who voted for Joe Biden, but also put me over the top in that district. And I'm just thankful for that. Thankful for Frontline and other folks who got out and supported my campaign and helped me take that message of hope and opportunity to people. It's not just about political issues. These are really issues of basic humanity. It's science.
law and common sense tells us a child in utero is worthy of protection. Why shouldn't Georgia step up and recognize that?
Cole Muzio (30:56.618)
So, Georgia will not have a constitutional amendment on the life issue come before us for a vote, like it has in other states. But there have been three instances since the passage of heartbeat where life has pretty much been on the ballot, where life has won. I would point to your campaign, particularly in 2020, where it was Planned Parenthood made you their number one enemy.
and they were going to target you. They were going to spend up all sorts of money and you outperform the presidential candidate to make sure that you won and held your seat. And that's a tremendous victory for life. 2022, after Brian Kemp had passed the heartbeat bill, you know, signed that in the law. Stacey Abrams comes roaring back. Georgia had voted blue in the 2020 election as a state. He went from a 52 ,000 vote margin to an over 300 ,000 vote margin in the 2022 governor's race.
And then fast forward to just this primary just a few weeks ago, we had Andrew Pinson, Justice Andrew Pinson ran on, you know, hey, I'm going to be a constitutional judge. I'm going to follow the law. And then he was being challenged by a former congressman, well -funded, supported by Planned Parenthood and other pro -abortion groups. He was running on the idea of I'm going to overturn heartbeat. I mean, he made it very clear that was a statewide abortion measure. If there was ever going to be one in Georgia, that was it.
And Andrew Pinson won that race 55 to 45. And Georgia is not a state that's voted 55, 45 for Republican in quite some time. And so that was a huge victory. We have not seen those victories in other states by March. Now, I mean, you can pick it 2022, which was supposed to be a red wave. You see pro -life governors in Florida, Texas, Iowa, Georgia were rewarded, but the red wave did not hit all around the country.
and you've seen a number of pro -life losses in ballot measures in states like Ohio and Kentucky and Kansas and others. That has led a lot of people to what I would say is in the moment of victory where you had jobs that came and you have lives being saved, from a messaging standpoint, you've largely seen a retreat on the life issue. Can you speak to both the politics of that but also...
Cole Muzio (33:15.466)
what that retreat has looked like and how we kind of reverse course and start climbing ground again.
Ed Setzler (33:21.548)
You know, Cole, it's, you know, the, I've got news for our listeners. When the pro -abortion left communicates about abortion, they don't speak clearly and they don't tell the truth. You know, there's tens of millions of dollars that are spent in these states to twist and contort these issues that are ballot questions. You know, the ability to collect dollars and raise money to tell the true story in support of them.
just doesn't materialize and there's just so much money on the left. I mean, think about many faithful pro -lifers give sacrificially to their churches. I mean, the people who are committed pro -life citizens of Georgia are tithing 10 % of their income to their church. Anything they give to politics is on top of that. The left just pours all these resources into death. I mean, it's sickening. So it is a massive.
overspend on the side of trying to sell this, distort it, and then try to polarize it. But when we communicate pro -life for what it is, it wins. I mean, the messaging around, I mean, again, it's an issue that unfortunately, because you've seen some of these losses, the ballot box, I'll pick on the Republican, my party, the Republican party, has been, in my opinion, all too hesitant to talk about this. I mean,
When you talk about the sanctity of human life in utero, you're talking about science, you're talking about law and common sense. I mean, if you look at a, you take a class of kindergartners and you show them a video screen that's got a 40 ultrasound in it of a child that's just eight, seven, eight weeks along, you say, what are you looking at here? They're gonna look at it and they're gonna say, that's a baby. They get it, they know what they're looking at, because it's a human being, it has a heartbeat. It's a living, distinct human being. They just need to have...
a safe place to live and nutrition they're going to grow at a ripe old age. So it's just a science is there, I mean it's with us. We just need to communicate that, you know, the law. It is a balance. As you look at these issues, you know, where you're anybody on either side of this question could concede, it's a balance, you're balancing the privacy, personal liberty, interest of a mom versus what is the value of this child. You're weighing those things out.
Ed Setzler (35:45.356)
And we don't ignore the very difficult circumstances women find themselves in with unplanned pregnancies at all. It's just when you balance that with the basic right to life of a living, distinct human child that is going to be brought to life in a couple of months, and if she chooses to offer it for adoption to a loving family, then she can move on with her life. It's just a temporary issue for her, but it's everything for the child if she takes.
abortion pill that kills the child and flushes it down a commode, life is over for the child. If she chooses a surgical abortion, it's a gruesome death with stainless steel objects. It's horrible. And as you balance these things, we don't ignore the difficult circumstances, but you weigh that against the right to life of the child, and it becomes clear for us legally in that legal balance. And then lastly, and it's the common sense of this, you know, you look at this and as I said before, you know, your grandma,
your kindergartner, all they all see this is a child. And people in the political left don't wait until the child passes down the birth canal to name the child, it's a baby. They're already painting their nursery, you know that it's a boy. All these things are happening with people who are quote political liberals because in their world, unfortunately, if the child's wanted, it's a child. If it's not, they try to...
convince folks it's somehow just a lump of tissue. It's like a wart or a growth in your body. It's nonsense. Common sense tells us otherwise. So, I think the messaging difficulties we've seen in the last two years is because the Republican Party as a political force and the Christian community and other even non -Christians who were people of conscience who support
the sanctity of human life of any faith or of no faith, have failed to communicate that science, law, and common sense tells us this. It's not a controversial issue, it's a common sense issue. I think the silence of what you may call pro -life conservatives on this has been yielding to the nonsense of the left. And we should yield no longer. We're right on this issue. You've got a child with a living...
Ed Setzler (38:03.148)
living distinct child inside a mom with a heartbeat, they're worthy of legal protection and everyone can recognize that. Even people who don't vote conservative recognize the humanity of that child. And that issue's right. It's not that we should say it because it's politically helpful, we should say it because it's morally true. And when you speak truth, and when you speak truth with clarity and winsomeness, people recognize it.
That's where we failed. That's where I thank Frontline for talking about this today is we are right on this issue. We just need to share that with people.
Cole Muzio (38:40.554)
I think that this is where...
You know, people sense out inauthenticity. If we're pro -life, there needs to be a reason for it other than we just find abortion to be icky. We're pro -life because we believe in that sanctity of human life and that that child is a human being. And we need to have a consistent worldview and ethos about that. When we talk about, you know, from an ideal standpoint of, hey, we're gonna come to this grand compromise on abortion. I mean, you look at the Donald Trump messaging, I'll go ahead and call.
call him out, he's certainly superior to the other option in November. But the way that he has shrinked from how we should be talking about this issue into this place of kind of a nebulous morality of, hey, abortion's just not ideal, and so we're gonna try to have fewer, but it's not coming from a place of this child is a living human being and there's a science and a thought process and a worldview to it.
That is a place where people are gonna sniff that out. And if it becomes a question of feeling and following the heart, well, the person who's able to speak is gonna be the mom or the person who's experiencing inconvenience at a given point in time or difficulty. It's not gonna be the child. And that messaging is going to win over people as you're talking about this issue. If you're speaking from it about a position of moral clarity and that this child has a right to life,
That's going to be the only way that comes across as authentic to people. And again, I look back at 2022 when you polled heartbeat, heartbeat alone did not poll super well in Georgia at that point in time. But people knew that Georgia pro lifers meant what they said. And that's why they rewarded you. That's why they rewarded Brian Kemp at the ballot is because there was a consistency in authenticity that people could trust. And I think we're losing that. I think we've got to claim that ground back. You got to be able to speak to.
Cole Muzio (40:41.258)
the life issue from a place of clarity and consistency. And your point, the left has a religious fervor to how much they love abortion. It is their religion. It is something they hold up and want to fight for with preeminence. I mean, they will fund it. They will knock on doors for it. They are adamant about it. And I think the church has to respond with a similar level of fervor and zeal in a way that to date it has not.
Ed Setzler (41:07.724)
You know, it's interesting, we go back a couple centuries, it's not all that long ago, it was that a personhood question was before our nation, you know, this isn't the first personhood question we wrestle with. You know, the church was silent in the south on the wickedness and the evil of slavery. It was silent in the north for too long. I mean, if you, and I mean, what I tell folks is a hundred and
17 years before Roe v. Wade came out, 116 years before Roe v. Wade came out, there was another 7 -2 opinion of the United States Supreme Court. I mean, Roe was a 7 -2 opinion. It was a landmark case, a case to first impression. It had never been dealt with by the court. Just like in 1857, the Dred Scott decision was a landmark case, and it dealt with the personhood of Dred Scott or not. Was Dred Scott a person, or was he property?
You know, what we didn't have before 1857 was a consistent voice of what is true. I mean, you think about one of the great purveyors of liberty in our nation, you know, the right of the Declaration of Independence. I could have sat, you know, 220, if this were 1824, not 2024, I could have sat on the porch of Monticello with Thomas Jefferson.
and said, Mr. President, can I be honest with you? You're living a lie here. I love your words in the Declaration of Independence. You're spot on that all men are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights that among these are life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. I said, how much longer can we live the lie that people of African descent and Native Americans are not persons? How much longer can we live that lie?
We're living a lie. And unfortunately, it took a war to solve that in the mid 19th century. Because Dred Scott in 1857, you know, four years before the Civil War launches, they come out with this opinion saying Dred Scott's property, it took a bloody war to solve that. We're looking to solve this personal issue of our day. There is a moral outrage of the scale of slavery.
Ed Setzler (43:33.932)
And the abortion question, we've lost 62 million human beings since abortion was legalized in 1973, and it is an outrage. And we can't sit back and say nothing. We can't sit back and pretend it's just a neutral issue. The church has led the way in providing clarity on it, but elected officials need to speak with clarity, say uncomfortable things. And it was not comfortable to talk about the Constitutional Convention.
I mean, just as Benjamin Franklin framed the slavery question as a rattlesnake curled up in the corner of the Constitutional Convention, it was a messy issue that no one wanted to talk about, deal with, or look at. But it was a moral outrage in their day, and the moral outrage of abortion in our day cannot be airbrushed out of our culture. It's got to be dealt with, has to be called out, and people need to see it for the outrage that it is so we as a nation can righteously rise up.
and overcome this peacefully, as Georgia has started to and other states have started to, we have got to complete the drill. The outrage of the 62 million holy innocents that have died over the last 54 years just can't continue.
Cole Muzio (44:47.402)
Yeah, I think to that point, that starts with the church. The church has got to speak to this with absolute clarity. I do think it's important to note that we are in the pains of this, Dobbs' decision, where people are dealing with the reality that they were told for over 50 years that there was a constitutional right to abortion. And all of a sudden, we're now dealing with this new reality. That was always going to be a bumpy road. But I think we have to stay consistent.
Ed Setzler (45:10.956)
Sure.
Cole Muzio (45:17.674)
You know, you and I would both agree, and you're the author of it, but you and I would both agree that HB 481, the Georgia's heartbeat law is a compromise bill. It's a compromise on policy. It's not ideal for you or for me or based on what we believe, but it's not a compromise in terms of what our, you know, we never lowered what the moral clarity ideal is. You know, folks like you and I in the pro -life community,
cannot lower that standard. Life begins at conception, it ends at natural death. And I think we need to continue to pursue that ideal and speak to it as we even work to save more lives in the process, save as many as we can, as fast as we can. But in that process, we've got to speak with clarity if we're going to move the culture. And so as we wrap up, we've gone a little bit longer, but I've really enjoyed this conversation.
Can you provide, kind of share just closing thoughts on where Georgia and where our nation is in this life fight and how we move forward from here to get where we want to go?
Ed Setzler (46:20.78)
Well Cole, I think we've got to continue to win the communications battle. But to win the communications battle, we have to have it. We've got to talk about these things. We've got to engage the culture on this issue. We can't run from it. The outrage of abortion is a shocking stain on our nation's history. It came about in the most cynical ways. As many people know, it was the population control, eugenics movement that gave birth.
that sort of metastasized and targeted folks in the minority community with abortion. It's just sickening when you study the history of abortion in our nation. Sickening. Cynical and horrible. And the legacy that it leaves has got to be communicating with folks. People need to understand it. They need to be equipped to communicate it themselves to their friends, family members, and others.
And we need to recognize it's not going to be just a one -time win. We have to consolidate our victories in the states that have recognized this legislatively. We have to protect those victories. We have to show folks that the policies of affirming life are better than the policies of death, which is just shocking and just hurtful and not only ends the life of a child but creates scars inside of mom that go on for decades and decades. It's the...
The ripple effect of abortion is shocking, but we've got to engage our culture. Start at home, start with those around you, start with your church, your faith community, your school, and don't see it as an issue that shouldn't be talked about. See it as an issue that you spoke about in your day, that you influenced people in your day. And let's take these wins we have in Georgia and some other states and let's say, you know what? We will not stop.
until New York City is a pro -life city. It's a, this affirming life. You know, more than 50 % of the children who are conceived in New York City die by abortion. There's a shocking statistic. And that's a culture that's, that's, it's a culture of, of, of allowing that, that's allowing that to happen. This is a culture issue, friends. Politics is downstream from culture. We were able to win this, this,
Ed Setzler (48:44.524)
this partial victory in Georgia because Georgians wanted it. We've got to make Americans want life and want to celebrate the unborn child and protect them in all corners of our nation. So let's start the hard work. It's not going to happen overnight. It's a long time fight, but it's one that's worth having. It's the personhood humanity issue of our day.
We can criticize folks 200 years ago, 160 years ago about what they didn't do in their day. But what are we doing in our day to call out and to take action on this outrage before us? I want to challenge folks to get involved. If you have any questions about this, feel free to reach out to Frontline, reach out to me. My cell phone number's available on my website. It's available on my state website. Call me personally. I'll tell you how you can make a difference. But this is the moral outrage of our day.
And are we going to be faithful? That's the question I would leave your listeners with.
Cole Muzio (49:46.698)
Awesome. Well, thanks, Ed. I appreciate the conversation. Thank you for what you did to pass this bill. It was a privilege working with you and it's a privilege to work with you down at the Capitol. There's probably a lot of other issues we could talk about, but as we celebrate, and it doesn't need to be a celebration, you know, we talked about some of the failures of the church, failures of kind of where we're at from a comms perspective, but let's celebrate what God has done today. And as we think about, you know, the Dobs decision and what we're able to enjoy and I mean,
I know people personally that are alive today because of the heartbeat law and because of the DAB decision. Children that were going to be aborted, but because of this law are now alive and that's worthy of celebration. So let's praise God for that. Absolutely.
Ed Setzler (50:28.204)
Paul, can I tell one super quick story before we wrap up? I got a call from Lori Parker. She was the executive director of CAHP Pregnancy Services, the first care women's center in Marietta for years. She called me in July of 22, she says, you know what Ed, I don't know what they're gonna tell you about this. Who knows what's gonna happen in the future? But I can tell you at 1 p in the afternoon.
On the day that the final court ruling came down, the heartbeat law went into effect. It was nine or 10 in the morning. He said, at one o 'clock that day, we had a young mom come in. She was abortion minded. She was determined to have an abortion. Took the ultrasound, showed that to her, saw it, and said, well, what's this mean? Well, the law's in effect now. It's illegal to have an abortion now. It's because your child has a detectable heartbeat. The young woman took a deep breath and goes, good.
What do you mean? Well, I didn't want this abortion anyway. It was my boyfriend and my mom that were trying to make me do this. Now I can go home and tell them I'm not going to another state. I'm going to have this child. She said, Ed, at 1 o 'clock in the afternoon, a life was saved. And there will be many more. But it took 1 o 'clock in the afternoon, the first day this came down, the first life I've heard about to be saved. I can't tell you the pictures I've had on my cell phone sent to me.
by people that have sent me pictures of young children who are alive today because the heartbeat law had their mom tap the brakes and stop and choose life. I just wanted to share that with people making it. This doesn't just make a difference in theory. There are children who will be alive for generations to come because of people in Georgia got engaged and did the right thing in this. And I just like to thank Frontline for their central role in making this happen.
Cole Muzio (52:01.13)
Let's go.
Cole Muzio (52:17.066)
Thanks brother and yeah, praise God. Praise God. Such an amazing thing. Let's let's let's celebrate. Let's get back to work. Let's win elections. Let's pass good policy. Let's change our culture and brother. You're a key part of all that. So God bless you man. Look forward to having you on in the future to talk some other issues. But in the meantime we will celebrate what God has done with his dapps aversary and we'll look forward to talking to everybody again here real soon. Thank you. Alright, how's that? Is that OK?
Ed Setzler (52:40.588)
Thanks, Cole.